Skrevet av Emne: Spygate  (Lest 66630 ganger)

0 medlemmer og 1 gjest leser dette emnet.

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Min første Leeds-kamp:
Strømsgodset vs Leeds, 19.september 1973

Cannavaro

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #121 på: Januar 17, 2019, 09:34:23 »
Masse blest og pressedekning rundt dette. Det som er så forbannet herlig er at det ikke er brutt noen lover eller regler rundt denne saken.
Moralister, fotballeksperter og presse elsker å massere denne saken for det det er verdt.  Den siste "spionasjen" på treningsfeltet er bare 1 % av analysen til Bielsa, alt grunnarbeid med motstanderen er gjort lenge før de har kommet dit. Alle lags trenere og managere gjør analyser av motstanderen, men de gjør det bare IKKE så grundig som vår mann.  Flere trenere tilstår at de har gjort noe av det samme, så dette virker som en storm i et vannglass egentlig. Her skal det tydeligvis svertes litt og peke finger mot noe som er allment kjent i fotballklubbene...og særlig Leeds da.
MFLU - Miracles For Leeds United

Promotion 2010

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #122 på: Januar 17, 2019, 09:52:44 »
Liam Watson

Can anyone remember steve Evans on bielsa?

“What does he know about the championship does he know about Rotherham on a cold Tuesday night”

Listen here u fat cunt he knows what u had for tea Easter Sunday 1987
#lufc

 ;D
Min første Leeds-kamp:
Strømsgodset vs Leeds, 19.september 1973

RoarG

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #123 på: Januar 17, 2019, 10:16:55 »
"Jeg tror ikke på Gud, men etter Bielsas ansettelse må jeg nok revurdere", Roar Gustavsen, januar 2020

AllWhiteTøyen

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #124 på: Januar 17, 2019, 10:28:12 »
Liam Watson

Can anyone remember steve Evans on bielsa?

“What does he know about the championship does he know about Rotherham on a cold Tuesday night”

Listen here u fat cunt he knows what u had for tea Easter Sunday 1987
#lufc

 ;D
Hahaha, kongemelding!
 

Bromancer

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #125 på: Januar 17, 2019, 10:32:39 »
..Så er det bare å avvente straffen da... Har 0 tiltro til EFL, og jeg er veldig nervøs på hva slags straff de gir oss. Tipper de sitter og gnir seg i hendene nå  :(

Promotion 2010

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #126 på: Januar 17, 2019, 13:59:49 »
Marcelo Bielsa's Spygate: Other cases of sporting espionage

16 January 2019
Getty Images Is Marcelo Bielsa Leeds' answer to James Bond?
Is Marcelo Bielsa Leeds' answer to James Bond?
Leeds United boss Marcelo Bielsa has given his table-topping team a licence to thrill this season - and could give James Bond a run for his money.

The 63-year-old Argentine addressed the "spy" saga in an extraordinary news conference on Wednesday, by saying he has sent a member of staff to watch every team they have played this season train.

In honour of Bielsa and his undercover operations, here are 007 other cases of espionage in sport...

What's bugging the All Blacks?

What: A sophisticated listening device was discovered in the All Blacks' team meeting room in a Sydney hotel ahead of the first Bledisloe Cup match between New Zealand and Australia in August 2016.

Whodunnit? After an investigation by police, All Blacks security guard Adrian Gard was charged with making up claims that he found the listening device.

Verdict: Gard was found not guilty of making up the claim and the magistrate was unable to rule out that someone else could have planted the bug. Gard was found guilty of a second charge relating to carrying out a security operation without a licence.

It's the pits - Ferrari's F1 furore

What: Confidential Ferrari information was leaked to McLaren ahead of the 2007 season.

Whodunnit? Then Ferrari mechanic Nigel Stepney passed information to his friend Mike Coughlan, then McLaren's chief designer. Ferrari said they only found out when Coughlan's wife tried to make copies of the documents at a local shop, whose owner telephoned them to reveal his suspicions.

Verdict: Stepney was sentenced in Italy to 20 months in prison after being found guilty of sabotage, industrial espionage and sporting fraud - he never served the sentence.

McLaren were initially cleared of any wrongdoing but, after a second hearing by governing body the FIA, were fined $100m and disqualified from the 2007 constructors' championship, which they otherwise would have won.

Cardiff not so pally with Palace

What: Cardiff alleged that their starting XI was leaked to Crystal Palace two days before the teams' Premier League match in April 2014, which Palace won 3-0.

Whodunnit? Cardiff claimed Palace's sporting director Iain Moody, who previously worked for the Welsh team, was behind the leak. Moody said the claims were "incredibly, extraordinarily untrue".

Verdict: Palace were fined by the Premier League.

Sly and secretive - the Rambo look

Getty Images
Rambo or Genoa's youth team coach?
What: In 2013, a Genoa coach was found hiding in bushes spying on a training session held by local rivals Sampdoria.

Whodunnit? Youth team coach Luca De Pra was believed to have watched Sampdoria train from under a tree while dressed in camouflage gear, without the knowledge of his own club.

Sampdoria said in a statement De Pra was hiding "like Rambo under a tree".

Verdict: De Pra was suspended by his club.

Patriot Games in the NFL

What: The New England Patriots recorded the New York Jets' defensive coaches' signals from an unauthorized location during a NFL match in September 2007.

Whodunnit? The New England Patriots and head coach Bill Belichick.

Verdict: The NFL fined Patriots Belichick $500,000 for his role in the incident, and fined the Patriots $250,000, and docked the team their original first-round selection in the 2008 NFL Draft which would have been the 31st pick.

A bad Korea move

What: A Swedish scout covertly watched the South Koreans prepare in Austria at a football World Cup training camp in 2018. In response, South Korea's coach made his players wear different numbered shirts into confuse opponents. "It's very difficult for westerners to distinguish between Asians," said Shin Tae-yong.

Whodunnit? Swedish scout Lars Jacobsson used a house near Korea's training base in Austria to watch training sessions using a high-performance telescope and video camera.

Verdict: Sweden manager Janne Andersson apologised for the incident, saying: "He heard about a practice session, he didn't understand that it was a closed session, he didn't understand and he watched from a distance."

From hairdryer to helicopter

What: Then Manchester United manager Sir Alex Ferguson's helicopter was spotted flying over Manchester City's training ground before their derby match in 2009.

Whodunnit? After circling twice over the City players as they made their final preparations, the chopper landed at United's training centre to pick up Ferguson and take him to Newbury races.

Verdict: Fergie wasn't grounded and United beat City 4-3 in the game.

Min første Leeds-kamp:
Strømsgodset vs Leeds, 19.september 1973

RoarG

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #127 på: Januar 17, 2019, 16:14:53 »
Michael Bridges sistemann ut som forsvarer Leeds mot selvrettferdige pundits. Her er det Martin Keown som får gjennomgå.

https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2019/01/17/michael-bridges-rips-into-martin-keown-and-defends-leeds-united/
"Jeg tror ikke på Gud, men etter Bielsas ansettelse må jeg nok revurdere", Roar Gustavsen, januar 2020

veteranen

  • Gjest
Sv: Spygate
« Svar #128 på: Januar 17, 2019, 17:59:07 »
Stuart Pearce mener at Leeds' 2-0 seier mot Derby bør omgjøres til 0-2 - altså tre poeng til Derby.

Tøffingen Stuart "psycho" Pearce, som viste seg å ikke være så veldig tøff allikevel når han møtte en større "psycho".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te2gE0dKwas

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Sv: Spygate
« Svar #129 på: Januar 17, 2019, 18:12:27 »
Mye blir skrevet fra pressekonferansen nå. Jeg har latt være å dele det meste. Men The Guardian har noen gode kolumnister. :)

With his ‘spygate’ PowerPoint, Marcelo Bielsa has enhanced his legend
The Leeds manager has an almost pathological honesty and there are few people in football so ready to admit fault as him

Jonathan Wilson Thu 17 Jan 2019 12.01 GMT  Last modified on Thu 17 Jan 2019 12.22 GMT
 

Marcelo Bielsa’s first job in coaching was at the city university in Buenos Aires. He hadn’t made it as a player, too slow to make more than four appearances in central defence for Newell’s Old Boys. He had floated about the lower leagues for a while, studying agronomy and physical education. A university side was an obvious stepping-stone to greater things, but Bielsa didn’t treat it as such. Rather he watched 3,000 players before selecting his squad of 20.

The 63-year-old has always been meticulous. When he was given a job in youth development at Newell’s, he wondered whether clubs were missing out on players from the interior, so got a map of Argentina, divided it into 70 sections and arranged a trial in each. Because he didn’t like flying, he ended up driving more than 5,000 miles in his Fiat 147 to see the results, establishing a theme that would become familiar of human fallibility, often his own, banging up against his plans and principles.
 Leeds’ spying should be treated as a form of entertainment, not cheating


Bielsa’s press conference on Thursday was extraordinary, not so much for the data revealed – much of which is available to anybody with a Wyscout account – but for the fact he bothered. It had seemed that the defining image of his time at Leeds would be him perched on a bucket in the technical area; now though, it may be that it becomes his silhouette, hunched slightly beneath his hoodie, looming over a spreadsheet like Nosferatu conducting an audit.

The point is not the data or the detail or even the fact that Bielsa, rather than leaving such matters to teams of analysts, is so obviously personally engaged in such analysis. It’s that he decided the best way to deal with the ridiculous spectacle of the English media in one of its periodical fits of morality was a 70-minute PowerPoint presentation.

Let’s deal, though, briefly, with the “spying”. A man with binoculars was caught, on public land, peering over a fence into Derby’s training session. It’s not exactly tradecraft of the highest order. There was no trespassing, no breaking and entering, no crime or breach of any regulation other than the vague sense that this sort of thing isn’t on – even though the complaint was brought by a former midfielder who achieved his greatest success under a manager who not merely committed the exact same “offence” (as André Villas-Boas revealed) but also committed far great infractions against moral codes both written and unwritten.
 


Bielsa, not surprisingly, was taken aback to be accused of a breach of fair play. There are few people in football so ready to admit fault as him. When as manager of Argentina he was sent from the touchline during a 3-0 defeat to Colombia (the game in 1999 in which Martín Palermo missed three penalties), he apologised to the referee. During his time in Bilbao, he denounced himself to police following an altercation with a builder.

He is not somebody who sees the world in black and white and dances on the head of a pin to make it so, and so the furore sent him into self-reflection. In 1992, after early success at Newell’s, he found his team desperately out of form and couldn’t work out why.


As his side prepared for a game against Unión in Santa Fé, he locked himself in his room at the Conquistador hotel and contemplated both his philosophy and himself. He rang his wife, Laura. He couldn’t explain, he said, why he felt like this: their daughter had recently survived serious illness and yet here he was, wanting the earth to swallow him over the results of football matches.


In the end he called his squad (which included a 19-year-old Mauricio Pochettino) together and asked if they believed in him, in what they were doing. He was prepared to adopt a more orthodox approach if that was what they wanted. No, they urged, carry on. Newell’s won the league that season and reached the final of the Libertadores.
The same processes were at work in that Thursday press conference. A consideration of the issue. An almost pathological honesty in admitting fault. An acknowledgement that there are acts that might be wrong even if there is no written rule against it. An explanation of why he sent spies to watch opponents, of the level of research he went into. Perhaps most fascinating of all, an admission that there might not even be any point but that he was driven to explore every avenue by a work ethic that left him feeling guilty if he did not.

And by a frank acknowledgement that he may be in the wrong, by an astonishing transparency, Bielsa has enhanced his legend. Leeds fans who hark back to the glory days of skulduggery and dossiers will feel they have their club back. Lampard’s tactics have been expertly dissected for anybody who wishes to examine them. And somehow, from an accusation of espionage, Bielsa emerges as somebody not only of intelligence and diligence but of great humility and integrity.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jan/17/marceo-bielsa-spygate-powerpoint-leeds-united
Tell me - I've got to know
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Dylan

RoarG

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #130 på: Januar 17, 2019, 18:18:14 »
Stuart Pearce mener at Leeds' 2-0 seier mot Derby bør omgjøres til 0-2 - altså tre poeng til Derby.

Tøffingen Stuart "psycho" Pearce, som viste seg å ikke være så veldig tøff allikevel når han møtte en større "psycho".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te2gE0dKwas
Eneste pundit som mener det. De prøver å toppe hverandre med drakoniske straffetiltak, og Pearce's forslag er til nå det mest idiotiske.
"Jeg tror ikke på Gud, men etter Bielsas ansettelse må jeg nok revurdere", Roar Gustavsen, januar 2020

veteranen

  • Gjest
Sv: Spygate
« Svar #131 på: Januar 17, 2019, 22:28:51 »
Mye blir skrevet fra pressekonferansen nå. Jeg har latt være å dele det meste. Men The Guardian har noen gode kolumnister. :)



https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jan/17/marceo-bielsa-spygate-powerpoint-leeds-united

Dette er av de absolutt beste artiklene jeg artiklene jeg har lest om Bielsa.

Denne "spionsaken" kommer til å bli en vinnersak for Bielsa - og dermed også for Leeds United.

Om de høye herrer skulle finne på - av selvopphøyd markeringsbehov - å komme med noen former for sanksjoner mot Bielsa, vil det ha null negativ effekt på klubben - det vil bare gjøre Bielsa til en enda større vinner.

Hvorfor mener jeg at dette er en vinnersak for både Bielsa og Leeds?
For det første har det med å gjøre at Bielsa har god sak. Han har ikke fjusket eller brutt noen lover.

Dernest har det med mennesket Bielsa å gjøre.
1. Han er en usedvanlig ærlig mann.
2. Han er ekstremt grundig og hardtarbeidende.
3. Han tilhører faglig sett den ypperste verdensklasse.
4. Han er uredd, men samtidig også veldig ydmyk.

Bielsa frykter ikke søkelyset - han vet at han har ingen ting å skjule.

Alt dette blir hele fotball-england (og store deler av fotball-verden forøvrig) nå vitne til - og stadig flere blir naturlig nok vilt begeistret!
 
Bielsa og Leeds vil fra nå av bli utsatt for en oppmerksomhet og interesse som for kort tid siden ville ha fremstått som en fjern ønskedrøm!
Dette kommer til etterhvert også til å få en betydelig positiv markedsmessig og økonomisk betydning for klubben. Vi gjør oss altså allerede nå klar for Premier League.
Andrea Radrizzani har ved ansettelsen av Bielsa skutt en mye større gullfugl enn det han i sine villeste fantasier kunne ha drømt om!

Men det vil vel finnes noen som ikke vil like Bielsa?
Selvsagt. Hadde jeg møtt Bielsa og akkurat det hadde blitt et tema, skulle han fått høre dette usedvanlig passende sitatet:
 
"Some people will NEVER like you, because your spirit irritates their demons".




« Siste redigering: Januar 17, 2019, 23:00:57 av veteranen »

Promotion 2010

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #132 på: Januar 17, 2019, 22:36:15 »
Sky sports News med 6,2 millioner følgere

POLL: Was Bielsa wrong to spy on opposition players?

Yes: 32 %
No: 68 %


58.000 stemmer!   ;D
Min første Leeds-kamp:
Strømsgodset vs Leeds, 19.september 1973

Promotion 2010

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #133 på: Januar 17, 2019, 23:10:17 »
Litt usikker om denne er publisert her, men likevel:


The Marcelo Bielsa 'spygate' row is another tiresome chapter in football's culture war - and there was no winner | The Independent

There are two sides to every story - but what if both are wrong?


On Wednesday night’s episode of The Debate on Sky Sports, Tim Sherwood was invited to discuss the Marcelo Bielsa spying story at Leeds United. Clearly, this had all the makings of one of the television events of the week: the sort of encounter that would encapsulate the low-flying culture war currently engulfing English football. Tactics Tim taking on Tactics Marcelo. Fingers on keyboards, everybody. This was going to be good.

“The audacity to come out and do this,” Sherwood said, the bile rising in him, the red-white-and-blue veins popping out of his temples, “is top-drawer.”

Oh.

“Everyone is capable of doing it to one another, and they should be allowed to do it, in Bielsa's eyes,” Sherwood continued, his bloodshot eyes narrowing with pure reactionary rage. “It's a minor advantage and a minute detail.”

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“He will feel there's no stone unturned in his preparation,” Sherwood concluded, the patriotic pride swelling in him as he prepared to swat this poncey foreigner all the way back where he came from. “And at the moment, you have to say he's doing a great job.”

But there was a problem. Sherwood wasn’t officially allowed to hold this opinion. It didn’t readily fit into the paradigm of what we’ve decided a man like Sherwood should think about a man like Bielsa. And so it got largely ignored in favour of more reliable naysayers like Martin Keown , whose years in the media have allowed him to perfect a slightly better quality of ban-this-filth outrage.

Within the game, meanwhile, the prevailing reaction to Bielsa’s decision to spy on opposition teams by sending a club employee to watch their training sessions largely aligned with Sherwood’s: on a fraying spectrum somewhere between sympathy and indifference. “Far too much has been made of it,” said Sheffield United’s Chris Wilder. “I think Leeds United have been very, very clever. I've got to say that it's been going on for 30, 40, 50 years in different scenarios, and I think it's been blown up a little bit too much, really.”

And in a way, this was a broad reflection of the almost uniformly positive reaction Bielsa has received among his fellow coaches since assuming the Leeds position last summer. “He is a top, top manager,” enthused Middlesbrough’s Tony Pulis. “He’s very experienced, he knows what the game is all about.” “His name doesn’t make him a great manager - his team does,” said Rotherham’s Paul Warne after a 2-0 defeat at Elland Road in August. “The most important thing is that he has a way of working and it’s given the whole club a shake-up,” former Leeds boss Paul Heckingbottom said earlier in the season. “The club needed that.”

Marcelo Bielsa delivers a PowerPoint presentation (Leeds United)
So where, then, has the outrage come from? Largely, it’s been imagined and invented. Both by the pundit class, the vast and diseased corpus of professional opinion-formers whose livelihood depends on finding something about which to be outraged every week for money, and by the mind-dustbin of social media, the vast and diseased corpus of amateur opinion-formers whose self-worth depends on finding someone outraged to laugh at every week for likes. For both, the issue of Bielsa’s spying, and even Bielsa himself, has been simply a handy canvas upon which to enact a theatrical masked joust only tangentially connected with reality.

The point is that football is an obsessive game, populated by obsessives. In the same way that even the most inept Premier League referee knows the rules of the game far better than Tony off Twitter, even the most reactionary of coaching dinosaurs will possess a far superior theoretical understanding of  the game to even the most dedicated amateur enthusiast. Even the much-ridiculed Frank Lampard, naturally hurt at his Derby team being on the receiving end of Bielsa’s antics, admitted to being a fan of Bielsa’s and having one of his books in his front room.

This point is so obvious it should barely require stating, but Marcelo Bielsa has far, far more in common with someone like Tim Sherwood than he does with some tactics blogger from East Sussex. As much as we like to divide and distinguish them, the guild of football management is really a sort of fraternity, a shared vocation in which the only one who can truly understand the obsession is the fellow obsessive.

Bielsa and Frank Lampard were friendly despite the controversy (PA)
The only thing remarkable about Bielsa’s 70-minute Powerpoint presentation at Thorp Arch on Wednesday wasn’t any of its content, but the fact that Bielsa had chosen to make it public. The research itself - both in its volume and level of detail - would have been fairly familiar to any coach working at a reasonable level. None of which seemed to stymie the predictable consensus on social media that Bielsa had totally stuck it to the gammons , absolutely triggered the proper football men, showed two fingers to Tommy Robinson, fnaw fnaw, please click on this Patreon link to buy my self-published book, etc.

If there ever was a culture war within English football, it’s largely been won and lost now. Everybody presses. Everybody uses data. Everybody prepares opposition dossiers in granular, exhaustive detail. Everybody thinks Bielsa is a great manager who has done a terrific job at Leeds. It’s only at the margins, in the crud-encrusted forums of public debate, that the war is still being fought: a form of identity politics that thrives on amplifying division in the service of egotistical subtext.

So: the argument that Bielsa did nothing wrong has become a fancy way of saying “I am clever and cultured, and grasp football in ways you don’t.” Equally: the argument that Bielsa crossed the line and disrespected the game has become a surrogate for “I am moral and patriotic in tune with football’s traditions, and grasp football in ways you don’t.”

It’s at tiresome times like this that I like to remember the words of that unlikeliest of footballing philosophers: Jadon Sancho. The Borussia Dortmund and England forward is, mercifully, yet to be canvassed for his views on Spygate. But the young often have a unique, uncynical knack for cutting through the white noise of football in a way many of us don’t, and earlier this season he was asked in an interview about how he had coped with what must have been the seismic culture shock of swapping the blood-and-fire world of English football for the refined footballing laboratory of the Bundesliga. Sancho simply replied, in his characteristic laconic style: “It’s all football, isn’t it?”
Min første Leeds-kamp:
Strømsgodset vs Leeds, 19.september 1973

Jon R

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #134 på: Januar 17, 2019, 23:19:18 »
Mye blir skrevet fra pressekonferansen nå. Jeg har latt være å dele det meste. Men The Guardian har noen gode kolumnister. :)



https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jan/17/marceo-bielsa-spygate-powerpoint-leeds-united

Dette er av de absolutt beste artiklene jeg artiklene jeg har lest om Bielsa.

Denne "spionsaken" kommer til å bli en vinnersak for Bielsa - og dermed også for Leeds United.

Om de høye herrer skulle finne på - av selvopphøyd markeringsbehov - å komme med noen former for sanksjoner mot Bielsa, vil det ha null negativ effekt på klubben - det vil bare gjøre Bielsa til en enda større vinner.

Hvorfor mener jeg at dette er en vinnersak for både Bielsa og Leeds?
For det første har det med å gjøre at Bielsa har god sak. Han har ikke fjusket eller brutt noen lover.

Dernest har det med mennesket Bielsa å gjøre.
1. Han er en usedvanlig ærlig mann.
2. Han er ekstremt grundig og hardtarbeidende.
3. Han tilhører faglig sett den ypperste verdensklasse.
4. Han er uredd, men samtidig også veldig ydmyk.

Bielsa frykter ikke søkelyset - han vet at han har ingen ting å skjule.

Alt dette blir hele fotball-england (og store deler av fotball-verden forøvrig) nå vitne til - og stadig flere blir naturlig nok vilt begeistret!
 
Bielsa og Leeds vil fra nå av bli utsatt for en oppmerksomhet og interesse som for kort tid siden ville ha fremstått som en fjern ønskedrøm!
Dette kommer til etterhvert også til å få en betydelig positiv markedsmessig og økonomisk betydning for klubben. Vi gjør oss altså allerede nå klar for Premier League.
Andrea Radrizzani har ved ansettelsen av Bielsa skutt en mye større gullfugl enn det han i sine villeste fantasier kunne ha drømt om!

Men det vil vel finnes noen som ikke vil like Bielsa?
Selvsagt. Hadde jeg møtt Bielsa og akkurat det hadde blitt et tema, skulle han fått høre dette usedvanlig passende sitatet:
 
"Some people will NEVER like you, because your spirit irritates their demons".

Lesning til å bli glad av!  :)
Jon R.

berlin

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #135 på: Januar 18, 2019, 08:24:09 »
Mye blir skrevet fra pressekonferansen nå. Jeg har latt være å dele det meste. Men The Guardian har noen gode kolumnister. :)

With his ‘spygate’ PowerPoint, Marcelo Bielsa has enhanced his legend
The Leeds manager has an almost pathological honesty and there are few people in football so ready to admit fault as him

Jonathan Wilson Thu 17 Jan 2019 12.01 GMT  Last modified on Thu 17 Jan 2019 12.22 GMT
 

Marcelo Bielsa’s first job in coaching was at the city university in Buenos Aires. He hadn’t made it as a player, too slow to make more than four appearances in central defence for Newell’s Old Boys. He had floated about the lower leagues for a while, studying agronomy and physical education. A university side was an obvious stepping-stone to greater things, but Bielsa didn’t treat it as such. Rather he watched 3,000 players before selecting his squad of 20.

The 63-year-old has always been meticulous. When he was given a job in youth development at Newell’s, he wondered whether clubs were missing out on players from the interior, so got a map of Argentina, divided it into 70 sections and arranged a trial in each. Because he didn’t like flying, he ended up driving more than 5,000 miles in his Fiat 147 to see the results, establishing a theme that would become familiar of human fallibility, often his own, banging up against his plans and principles.
 Leeds’ spying should be treated as a form of entertainment, not cheating


Bielsa’s press conference on Thursday was extraordinary, not so much for the data revealed – much of which is available to anybody with a Wyscout account – but for the fact he bothered. It had seemed that the defining image of his time at Leeds would be him perched on a bucket in the technical area; now though, it may be that it becomes his silhouette, hunched slightly beneath his hoodie, looming over a spreadsheet like Nosferatu conducting an audit.

The point is not the data or the detail or even the fact that Bielsa, rather than leaving such matters to teams of analysts, is so obviously personally engaged in such analysis. It’s that he decided the best way to deal with the ridiculous spectacle of the English media in one of its periodical fits of morality was a 70-minute PowerPoint presentation.

Let’s deal, though, briefly, with the “spying”. A man with binoculars was caught, on public land, peering over a fence into Derby’s training session. It’s not exactly tradecraft of the highest order. There was no trespassing, no breaking and entering, no crime or breach of any regulation other than the vague sense that this sort of thing isn’t on – even though the complaint was brought by a former midfielder who achieved his greatest success under a manager who not merely committed the exact same “offence” (as André Villas-Boas revealed) but also committed far great infractions against moral codes both written and unwritten.
 


Bielsa, not surprisingly, was taken aback to be accused of a breach of fair play. There are few people in football so ready to admit fault as him. When as manager of Argentina he was sent from the touchline during a 3-0 defeat to Colombia (the game in 1999 in which Martín Palermo missed three penalties), he apologised to the referee. During his time in Bilbao, he denounced himself to police following an altercation with a builder.

He is not somebody who sees the world in black and white and dances on the head of a pin to make it so, and so the furore sent him into self-reflection. In 1992, after early success at Newell’s, he found his team desperately out of form and couldn’t work out why.


As his side prepared for a game against Unión in Santa Fé, he locked himself in his room at the Conquistador hotel and contemplated both his philosophy and himself. He rang his wife, Laura. He couldn’t explain, he said, why he felt like this: their daughter had recently survived serious illness and yet here he was, wanting the earth to swallow him over the results of football matches.


In the end he called his squad (which included a 19-year-old Mauricio Pochettino) together and asked if they believed in him, in what they were doing. He was prepared to adopt a more orthodox approach if that was what they wanted. No, they urged, carry on. Newell’s won the league that season and reached the final of the Libertadores.
The same processes were at work in that Thursday press conference. A consideration of the issue. An almost pathological honesty in admitting fault. An acknowledgement that there are acts that might be wrong even if there is no written rule against it. An explanation of why he sent spies to watch opponents, of the level of research he went into. Perhaps most fascinating of all, an admission that there might not even be any point but that he was driven to explore every avenue by a work ethic that left him feeling guilty if he did not.

And by a frank acknowledgement that he may be in the wrong, by an astonishing transparency, Bielsa has enhanced his legend. Leeds fans who hark back to the glory days of skulduggery and dossiers will feel they have their club back. Lampard’s tactics have been expertly dissected for anybody who wishes to examine them. And somehow, from an accusation of espionage, Bielsa emerges as somebody not only of intelligence and diligence but of great humility and integrity.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jan/17/marceo-bielsa-spygate-powerpoint-leeds-united

 :)

berlin

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #136 på: Januar 18, 2019, 08:46:56 »
Mye blir skrevet fra pressekonferansen nå. Jeg har latt være å dele det meste. Men The Guardian har noen gode kolumnister. :)



https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jan/17/marceo-bielsa-spygate-powerpoint-leeds-united

Dette er av de absolutt beste artiklene jeg artiklene jeg har lest om Bielsa.

Denne "spionsaken" kommer til å bli en vinnersak for Bielsa - og dermed også for Leeds United.

Om de høye herrer skulle finne på - av selvopphøyd markeringsbehov - å komme med noen former for sanksjoner mot Bielsa, vil det ha null negativ effekt på klubben - det vil bare gjøre Bielsa til en enda større vinner.

Hvorfor mener jeg at dette er en vinnersak for både Bielsa og Leeds?
For det første har det med å gjøre at Bielsa har god sak. Han har ikke fjusket eller brutt noen lover.

Dernest har det med mennesket Bielsa å gjøre.
1. Han er en usedvanlig ærlig mann.
2. Han er ekstremt grundig og hardtarbeidende.
3. Han tilhører faglig sett den ypperste verdensklasse.
4. Han er uredd, men samtidig også veldig ydmyk.

Bielsa frykter ikke søkelyset - han vet at han har ingen ting å skjule.

Alt dette blir hele fotball-england (og store deler av fotball-verden forøvrig) nå vitne til - og stadig flere blir naturlig nok vilt begeistret!
 
Bielsa og Leeds vil fra nå av bli utsatt for en oppmerksomhet og interesse som for kort tid siden ville ha fremstått som en fjern ønskedrøm!
Dette kommer til etterhvert også til å få en betydelig positiv markedsmessig og økonomisk betydning for klubben. Vi gjør oss altså allerede nå klar for Premier League.
Andrea Radrizzani har ved ansettelsen av Bielsa skutt en mye større gullfugl enn det han i sine villeste fantasier kunne ha drømt om!

Men det vil vel finnes noen som ikke vil like Bielsa?
Selvsagt. Hadde jeg møtt Bielsa og akkurat det hadde blitt et tema, skulle han fått høre dette usedvanlig passende sitatet:
 
"Some people will NEVER like you, because your spirit irritates their demons".


Suverent innlegg! God betraktninger. Enig.  :)

Tar ikke opprykk for gitt, men denne opphausa saken er blitt snudd så til de grader til Bielsa og Leeds fordel.

RoarG

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #137 på: Januar 18, 2019, 12:55:08 »
Sky sports News med 6,2 millioner følgere

POLL: Was Bielsa wrong to spy on opposition players?

Yes: 32 %
No: 68 %


58.000 stemmer!   ;D
Godt gjort å tape sin egen avstemning så grundig etter å ha brukt hele uka på å sverte Bielsa. ;D
"Jeg tror ikke på Gud, men etter Bielsas ansettelse må jeg nok revurdere", Roar Gustavsen, januar 2020

HåvardK

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #138 på: Januar 18, 2019, 15:37:39 »
Sky sports News med 6,2 millioner følgere

POLL: Was Bielsa wrong to spy on opposition players?

Yes: 32 %
No: 68 %


58.000 stemmer!   ;D
Godt gjort å tape sin egen avstemning så grundig etter å ha brukt hele uka på å sverte Bielsa. ;D
Enig - men dette driter vel  EFL i. Frykter uforholdsmessig høy straff for dette, og risikoen for at Bielsa ikke gidder mer som følge av det.

auren

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #139 på: Januar 18, 2019, 17:39:44 »
Pochettino:

Spurs boss Mauricio Pochettino on Bielsa & spygate:

"It's a situation which makes me sad. It's important to split my relationship with him & what happened .. 1 week ago. Always my love will be with him. .. but about the situation last week.... I think, for me, its wrong." #lufc


auren
"Guardiola said: 'You know more about Barcelona than I do!'"
Marcelo Bielsa, 16.01.19, etter Spygate-foredraget sitt.

auren

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #140 på: Januar 18, 2019, 20:25:47 »
Bristol City eier Lansdown vil at Leeds skal ha poengtrekk:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/46920758?ns_campaign=bbc_radio_leeds&ns_source=twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_linkname=english_regions

Kan jo ikke være uenig i dette punktet:

If he'd asked to send someone to watch our training we would have said no. And every other football club would say no. So why does he think it's acceptable to do it?

"However great a coach he is, it's the wrong thing to do. Poking around and skulking around a training ground is not part of the game."


auren
"Guardiola said: 'You know more about Barcelona than I do!'"
Marcelo Bielsa, 16.01.19, etter Spygate-foredraget sitt.

Josch

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #141 på: Januar 18, 2019, 20:53:21 »
Bristol City eier Lansdown vil at Leeds skal ha poengtrekk:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/46920758?ns_campaign=bbc_radio_leeds&ns_source=twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_linkname=english_regions

Kan jo ikke være uenig i dette punktet:

If he'd asked to send someone to watch our training we would have said no. And every other football club would say no. So why does he think it's acceptable to do it?

"However great a coach he is, it's the wrong thing to do. Poking around and skulking around a training ground is not part of the game."


auren

Dette er en smaksak blant ex spillere og trenere. De er både for og imot straff for dette. Det mest ekstreme meningene blir løftet frem i mediene.

Det ville vært rart å dømme dette på linje med økonomisk doping , dvs poengtrekk, der reglene er helt soleklare.

For spioneri er fotballens regler uklare. Da kan man ikke gi poengstraff, som er en av de hardeste straffene.

Jeg mener vi her befinner oss på "uskrevne regler" der dette oppfattes helt ulikt i England.

RoarG

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #142 på: Januar 18, 2019, 21:43:01 »
Bristol City eier Lansdown vil at Leeds skal ha poengtrekk:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/46920758?ns_campaign=bbc_radio_leeds&ns_source=twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_linkname=english_regions

Kan jo ikke være uenig i dette punktet:

If he'd asked to send someone to watch our training we would have said no. And every other football club would say no. So why does he think it's acceptable to do it?

"However great a coach he is, it's the wrong thing to do. Poking around and skulking around a training ground is not part of the game."


auren

Dette er en smaksak blant ex spillere og trenere. De er både for og imot straff for dette. Det mest ekstreme meningene blir løftet frem i mediene.

Det ville vært rart å dømme dette på linje med økonomisk doping , dvs poengtrekk, der reglene er helt soleklare.

For spioneri er fotballens regler uklare. Da kan man ikke gi poengstraff, som er en av de hardeste straffene.

Jeg mener vi her befinner oss på "uskrevne regler" der dette oppfattes helt ulikt i England.
Det er derfor reglene ikke kan være uskrevne. Er det galt, skriv det ned. Og si hva konsekvensene er. Hva det hele koker ned til er at en mann, ansatt i Leeds Utd. har oppholdt seg på offentlig grunn. Det var OK for politiet, så de lot han gå. Alt annet er bare massesuggesjon.
"Jeg tror ikke på Gud, men etter Bielsas ansettelse må jeg nok revurdere", Roar Gustavsen, januar 2020

Promotion 2010

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #143 på: Januar 18, 2019, 21:45:20 »
Bristol City eier Lansdown vil at Leeds skal ha poengtrekk:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/46920758?ns_campaign=bbc_radio_leeds&ns_source=twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_linkname=english_regions

Kan jo ikke være uenig i dette punktet:

If he'd asked to send someone to watch our training we would have said no. And every other football club would say no. So why does he think it's acceptable to do it?

"However great a coach he is, it's the wrong thing to do. Poking around and skulking around a training ground is not part of the game."


auren


Simon O’Rourke

When AR went on his Wolves rant last year, you’ll note he never asked for a points deduction. He just asked for a level playing field. He *could* have asked for points to be deducted because the rules actually called for it. It’s called etiquette and class. Lansdown has neither.


 ;)
Min første Leeds-kamp:
Strømsgodset vs Leeds, 19.september 1973

RoarG

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #144 på: Januar 18, 2019, 21:49:37 »
Bristol City eier Lansdown vil at Leeds skal ha poengtrekk:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/46920758?ns_campaign=bbc_radio_leeds&ns_source=twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_linkname=english_regions

Kan jo ikke være uenig i dette punktet:

If he'd asked to send someone to watch our training we would have said no. And every other football club would say no. So why does he think it's acceptable to do it?

"However great a coach he is, it's the wrong thing to do. Poking around and skulking around a training ground is not part of the game."


auren
Når ble snoking ikke en del av spillet? T.o.m. folk med tittelen "Sir" har gjort det. Men han gjorde det fra helikopter.
"Jeg tror ikke på Gud, men etter Bielsas ansettelse må jeg nok revurdere", Roar Gustavsen, januar 2020

Promotion 2010

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #145 på: Januar 18, 2019, 21:55:12 »
Klage til EFL og FA:

Neil
Done... #lufc

Feel free to copy and send, the email is: enquiries@efl.com

The more sent the better.


Min første Leeds-kamp:
Strømsgodset vs Leeds, 19.september 1973

Josch

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #146 på: Januar 18, 2019, 22:25:44 »
Klage til EFL og FA:

Neil
Done... #lufc

Feel free to copy and send, the email is: enquiries@efl.com

The more sent the better.




Inhabil BC person i EFL-styret? Kanskje.  Men en straff må uansett begrunnes med basis i nåværende regelverk.  Og der finnes bare en tåkete formulering om fair play og "honesty", som tidligere er vist i denne tråden.

Det er veldig delte meninger om spioneri med kikkert er unfair. Særlig blant trenere.

Blir Leeds straffet så tror jeg Leeds vil vinne saken hvis de påklager straffen. Regelverket er ikke klart nok.
« Siste redigering: Januar 18, 2019, 22:58:46 av Josch »

RoarG

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #147 på: Januar 18, 2019, 22:37:30 »
Denne "Sir" ble ikke straffet. Crystal Palace ble vel ilagt bot da noe lakk Cardiffs lagoppstilling til dem?
"Jeg tror ikke på Gud, men etter Bielsas ansettelse må jeg nok revurdere", Roar Gustavsen, januar 2020

Blank_File

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #148 på: Januar 19, 2019, 01:25:06 »
Bristol City eier Lansdown vil at Leeds skal ha poengtrekk:

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/46920758?ns_campaign=bbc_radio_leeds&ns_source=twitter&ns_mchannel=social&ns_linkname=english_regions

Kan jo ikke være uenig i dette punktet:

If he'd asked to send someone to watch our training we would have said no. And every other football club would say no. So why does he think it's acceptable to do it?

"However great a coach he is, it's the wrong thing to do. Poking around and skulking around a training ground is not part of the game."


auren

Hvis de kunne ha sagt nei? Det blir et dårlig resonnement etter min mening.

Ufint? Javel. Straffbart? Nei.

Promotion 2010

Sv: Spygate
« Svar #149 på: Januar 19, 2019, 07:29:12 »
 ;D

Frank Lampard angered by Marcelo Bielsa's Spygate presentation with Derby manager feeling disrespected by Leeds boss discussing his tactics

By Kieran Gill for MailOnline 01:00 18 Jan 2019, updated 08:23 18 Jan 2019

Frank Lampard watched Leeds conference on way home from Southampton
He made a joke about the presentation following the FA Cup third round replay
But it is understood Lampard was left angered by Marcelo Bielsa's behaviour
Frank Lampard was left stunned by Marcelo Bielsa's Spygate presentation, feeling it was disrespectful of the Leeds manager to discuss his Derby tactics in public.

Lampard watched footage of Bielsa's unusual press conference on his way home from Southampton, where Derby won their FA Cup third-round replay on penalties.

He walked in to speak to the press at St Mary's Stadium holding his laptop under his arm and joked: 'Are you ready for your presentation? We do analysis, too.'


Frank Lampard was left stunned and unhappy by Marcelo Bielsa's Spygate presentation
Despite that light-hearted comment, it is understood Lampard was left angered by Bielsa's behaviour ahead of Derby's FA Cup clash on Wednesday night.

Lampard now wants to draw a line under Spygate and wait until the EFL decide whether to punish Premier League promotion-chasing Leeds or not.

Derby and Leeds are not due to meet again in the league this season, unless they come up against one another in the Championship play-offs.

Lampard watched footage of Bielsa's press conference on his way home from Southampton
Min første Leeds-kamp:
Strømsgodset vs Leeds, 19.september 1973